I’m a Married Pastor With No Kids, and I Want You to Stop Asking Why

Black Love is not only in regards to the day; it’s in regards to the lifetime of {couples} and all 360 levels of it. Rev. Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes and Rev. Dr. Andrew Wilkes are the co-founding, co-lead pastors of The Double Love Expertise Church in Brooklyn, New York. They met in school at Hampton College and have been collectively main as ministers and residing in love ever since for nearly 20 years. They’re revered by many however can’t assist however to typically really feel frustration when individuals who love them however might not essentially know their journey ask, “When are y’all gone have some children?” As we speak, for Black Love, Pastor Gabby shared all of it with me and let me in on her journey, what legacy really means, and what girls and {couples} who don’t have kids need you to know earlier than you ask them invasive questions. 

Yasmine Jameelah: How did your love story start? 

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: I met my husband in school, and we received married 5 years after our school commencement. So once I received married, I used to be two weeks away from 25, and he was 24. After I was youthful, I assumed I might get married round that age as a result of I feel within the 90s, folks getting married of their mid-20s, issues was normalized, and with motion pictures like The Finest Man, Brown Sugar, The Wooden, and so on., these motion pictures gave Black professionals who have been post-college, getting married and discovering their profession, some hope. I say that as a result of I feel now I’m 2023, it’s way more frequent for Black of us residing in city cities to get married of their thirties now. 

Yasmine Jameelah: (Laughs) Proper, as a result of now the query for us of us in our thirties is, can we even afford to get married proper now?

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Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: Proper! However I’ll say that I received married once I was prepared. Andrew and I have been actually the primary amongst our crew to get married, nevertheless it wasn’t uncommon as a result of we had been collectively for 5 years. So it wasn’t like, oh, you all are speeding this. I feel we have been most likely sort of the final cohort of younger adults on the time who had grown up with these visuals. I don’t wish to say we have been offered propaganda, however that ’90s sort of visible of what life was going to appear like is what we thought we might have and so we received married in 2010. Getting married at that age appeared prefer it was sort of my plan, so to talk, for my private life. One factor that I used to be intentional about is I recall saying to my household that I didn’t wish to have kids till I used to be in my thirties, and I feel that’s important. So, I used to be instantly on contraception throughout my twenties, and that was intentional and the rationale was that I come from a household with a really sturdy maternal gene. I’m grateful for that, and I don’t imply this to be disparaging, however for lots of the girls in my household, we had kids early. And at any time when we had kids, that altered the opposite dimensions of who we have been as girls, professionally and personally.

That scared me, to be actually sincere. So, I’ve a number of nephews, and I’ve plenty of cousins. We now have all the time had infants in our household, and I’ve all the time been the go-to individual for infants. I’m very nurturing in that means as effectively. 

I used to be by no means afraid of getting kids, as in, oh, I don’t know what I may do with a baby, or I’m not maternal. It wasn’t that; it was the other. I really was like, I fear that if I’ve kids in my 20’s, I’m not going to get an opportunity to see how these different desires for my life pan out. On the time, I used to be a music publicist in New York, and I used to be very heavy into the leisure scene, and I needed to provide myself some house to see if that might manifest ultimately that I deem profitable. And my husband additionally was not in a rush as we each had objectives we desired to hit earlier than parenthood, and he needed to be a really current father. He got here from a two-parent residence, and I got here from a house of divorce, so we have been intentional about what we needed. 

I feel that our households, our associates, and everybody who knew us might assume that we have been simply sort of, like, enjoyable and flirty. We received married in our twenties as a result of we discovered one another and needed to start out our lives collectively, however no person was asking us about children as a result of it was sort of clear, like, oh, y’all in your bag, we’re so happy with you all, and that sort of factor. And so most likely round my thirtieth birthday once I went to Yale to get my divinity faculty diploma was most likely round that point interval is once I first began feeling the group sort of being like, how are you going to do this? You’re not interested by children? At the moment, I additionally began to really feel my very own inside want to have kids. I used to all the time say I needed to have two kids between the ages of 30 and 35. That was my private want. Primarily as a result of I had heard about geriatric being pregnant, I had heard about problems after 35. And in order that, to me, was my candy spot to have kids. Nonetheless, as a result of I sort of did make this shift right into a second profession and went again to high school and did all of that, I feel I used to be like, effectively if it sort of occurs naturally inside that time-frame, nice. And if it doesn’t, perhaps it’s like, God not wanting me to steadiness being pregnant whereas being in divinity faculty. On the time, I used to be serving on the employees of a megachurch, after which I graduated from Yale at 33.

At that time, I started to really feel like sufficient of my life was in a spot the place I might welcome this section of life. And I ought to say that having kids has additionally been the immediate for lots of my household, who did dwell away from residence, to relocate again residence. So my mother, who lives in Dallas, the place I’m from, was all the time sort of like, yeah, yeah, dwell your finest life, and when you could have these grandbabies transfer again residence, you’re not going to be in New York with these kids, that complete factor. So I might say most likely round that age, Andrew and I began getting slightly bit extra intentional with monitoring ovulation, however I used to be all the time against fertility medication. Not as a result of I had any points with it, and it wasn’t due to something religious. I’m only a very sensible individual, and I’ve all of the respect for family members and associates who’ve conceived by way of IVF. For me, I used to be afraid. 

I’m afraid of miscarriages and on the wage of a minister, I can not afford to spend a ton of cash on fertility enhancements just for them to not work out. I’m additionally afraid of letting my want to get pregnant devour my life and overwhelm my marriage. I’m a really sensible individual. And so I sort of received into this mindset with myself of like, as naturally as doable, I’m going to trace my ovulation, and if it occurs that means, I’m going to be actually grateful. And if it doesn’t, I’ll cross that bridge once I get there. And so I’m 38, and it has by no means occurred – and I’ve by no means had a being pregnant scare. 

In that have, I’m distinctive in my buddy group and my household, however I don’t assume I’m distinctive on the earth of Black girls whom I’ve by no means met and who’ve by no means had a being pregnant scare, however you don’t all the time hear this narrative. So I used to be like, effectively, this is part of me, too. I do know that folks have questions on being pastors and household dynamics. Basis is essential to the church, and I all the time imagined I might have kids. That’s how I made my selections round kids, and now I’m 38 with no little one.

Yasmine Jameelah: This dialog is so fantastically layered, as a result of I’m listening to a number of tales directly and one being this timeline that’s vital to notice. For ladies, it doesn’t appear to be the window of time may be very huge, proper? To attain your objectives, to be productive, to be targeted on the issues which are passionate to you, and meet your husband, get married, and have children. I’ve additionally seen girls that I went to high school with who had kids instantly after school or had them and dropped out have all of those regrets of what they didn’t accomplish, of feeling stagnant, and so on. All of those various things, and so I say all that, you had the chance to pursue a second profession, like, this stuff that aren’t inconceivable with kids, nevertheless it does make it laborious to say, like, hey, I don’t know if I wish to do that factor anymore when you could have folks which are relying on me. 

I wish to return to one thing that you just simply stated about church. And the idea of household and the way vital household is to church. And my thought is, effectively, you’re a household; you two are an entire household. However do you assume that the church, or simply even not past the church, that society doesn’t see an individual that’s married and see an entire household, or do you assume that that’s one thing that’s altering? 

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: Yeah, that’s an incredible query. It has been my expertise that folk who’re with out kids, society appears to assume that we’re not totally at our full stage of maturity proper? Like ima be 40 in two years, I’m good and grown. I’ve been residing in New York for 15 years, the price of residing alone will get you ready for maturity (laughs) I’m grown. I’m very grown.

I’m a supportive spouse. I’ve in-laws, I’ve my household, and I’ve nieces and nephews. I’ve good associates for whom I’ve turn into like an aunt to their kids. However there’s this type of, oh, you’re on this section of life vitality that we obtain that’s not spoken, however that I really feel round folks. Particularly when feedback come like you possibly can journey since you don’t have kids or you possibly can transfer up in your profession as a result of you could have kids, however wait until you could have children, and then you definately all will actually perceive the actual, actual. Proper? Yeah. I might say there are folks in my life who consider that Andrew and I are household and are full. However I might say plenty of of us have simply been conditioned this fashion. Curiously sufficient, if I wasn’t married however I had children, I feel folks could be extra like, yeah, you’re an grownup. 

Yasmine Jameelah: Isn’t that one thing? 

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: Folks sort of see us as like a cute bubble of romance that we’ve been in a position to protect all these years as a result of we don’t have kids. And there’s this some that really feel since you don’t have kids, you haven’t confronted some extent of hardship or alternative or what have you ever. That with out kids, you haven’t arrived into the fullest model of adulting. I feel the opposite factor, because it pertains to simply my career as a pastor, I’ve plenty of households in my church who clearly have kids, and so I feel that they might like it if we did, too. However I don’t actually really feel it from my members as a result of they selected our church understanding who we’re. However there’s, I feel, this type of at the back of their thoughts I current slightly bit youthful than I really am, similar to my complete household; all of us age slowly. Black don’t crack. However I’m nearer to 30 than 40. So I feel there’s this assumption that it simply hasn’t occurred but. And I feel that a number of the sensitivity is from that ache, for instance when Mom’s Day and Father’s Day the place folks say “It’s coming” not realizing my age. Some years it’s cool, and it rolls off my again. Different years, I’m sort of like, how dare you? You don’t know what my scenario is, and also you don’t must really feel like it’s important to say that to me. To reply your query, I do see myself as a household with Andrew as an entire household. However then I additionally take into consideration our siblings and our mother and father. We’re blessed to each have our moms and dads nonetheless residing. I didn’t develop up with my father, he’s nonetheless residing. And so I take into consideration my speedy household as that wingspan of my nephews, my siblings, my mom, and my in-law; that’s my unit, however none of them dwell in New York. So New Yorkers that we have interaction with don’t know that until they’re on social media they assume it’s simply Andrew and me. And for lots of people, I feel they’re simply ready for us to have kids. And if we by no means have kids, I don’t know what which means for folks and what that brings up for folks nevertheless it appears to make plenty of of us uncomfortable.

Yasmine Jameelah: So folks may say that married {couples} who’ve kids could be extra invested of their marriage as a result of they’ve these children, as a result of they’ve this life — however you and Andrew have stated, I select you regardless. How does that really feel for you?

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: I like that query. It feels nice. And I feel that’s the place I’m in my life proper now, the place I’m even letting myself modify to, what if it’s simply us? What if the children don’t come and adjusting even my expectations of myself and what my physique will or won’t produce for the kid. And I’m beginning to be okay with that. I’m beginning to be like, what? That’ll be cool. We now have an excellent life. And I feel when it comes to the fairy story, like storybook life, that younger children get offered at a younger age, I feel I’ve that in my head. So we nonetheless have these jokes of like man, y’alls children are going to be this fashion or that means, and we do it too. And so I feel I’m simply beginning to launch that being, like, this cloud over even me of like, that’s our subsequent. And simply sort of being like, okay. I do really feel, like, parented plenty of actions, lots of people, quite a bit for the tradition. I don’t. We’ve been egocentric in our time and our items as a result of all of it goes again to legacy, proper so should you don’t have children, what’s your legacy? Or who’s going to look after you once you’re older? All these ways in which we discuss kids, like, who’s going to have your again? Who’s going to be there for you regardless? And so I’m beginning to broaden my definition of group, of household, beginning to attempt to launch these fears of who might be there for me and simply sort of attempting to dwell my life in a means that’s devoted. And I seen folks with out kids nonetheless have of us that love their previous age. They’ll have of us that pull up for them, present up for them. And so I’m attempting to readjust my very own pondering of like, okay, there are different ways in which I can construct this legacy on this group in ways in which matter to me, aside from slowly.

Yasmine Jameelah: On days the place you are feeling nice, such as you stated, you are feeling good, you are feeling fantastic, however on days that you just don’t, what will get you thru, as a result of this isn’t simply one thing when it comes to what you shared, why you are feeling like your story is totally different in your loved ones. There’s so many black girls, proper, which have had experiences, whether or not it’s they’re not having a scare or perhaps they’ve achieved rounds of infertility and fertility medication, have been unsuccessful or regardless of the case could also be, or miscarriage, et cetera. How do you get your self by way of on these days? And do you could have assist in that side? Do you could have a supportive OBGYN? In fact, like your husband. However when it comes to reproductive smart, have you ever had assist by way of this journey? 

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: I’ll say this, I want a extra constant OBGYN. That’s an instantaneous purpose of mine, even only for my very own well being and wellness. Help is hard on this particular journey. I had a dialog with a very good buddy, about two years in the past. She was pushing me to have kids as a result of she was pushing herself. And so she needed a comrade within the battle of attempting to have kids. And I informed her, I used to be like, hear, one factor that I’m clear about is, even when I get pregnant, I’m actually involved about the price of residing in New York to lift a baby. I dwell on the highest ground of a brownstone, a two-bedroom brownstone, which is tiny sufficient, it’s tiny for my husband. Think about with a baby. The reality of the matter is, at this level in my life, if I received pregnant, sure, I might bounce for pleasure. However I’m not within the sort of place the place I actually really feel like I may afford the non-public preschool and the non-public faculty, or if it’s public faculties, the house that I want to purchase in the best faculty district, after which they’re going to public faculties and the continued price of kid care and never having a group care, that means sort of elevating this little one nearly in silo or needs to be on a airplane on time. And so there are these moments the place I’m sort of like, perhaps it’s a God factor that I’m not. As a result of after you all throw me that child bathe and after you all Facetime me each every now and then, it’s simply going to be me, this child, and Drew. Having stated all that, assist from my group is hard. They need me to have a baby, however I don’t assume I’ve built-in assist to assist me elevate that little one. And in order that additionally causes me to be okay with wherever this lands as a result of I do know that it’s going to be a large change in my life, and I don’t have all of the assets or connections to assist. 

No one has the best reply. I don’t even know the best reply to myself half the time. However I feel sensitivity could be welcomed. For instance, when folks make recommendations for fertility medical doctors, you’re asking somebody to not take a well being danger and in addition a monetary danger. You’re not being delicate to the truth that somebody may not have the $20,000 to $40,000 that IVF prices because it often takes a number of rounds for it to achieve success. I would like folks to acknowledge that it’s so simple as they assume and the way a lot of an funding that it’s. It’s an Funding of emotion. It’s an funding of finance. It’s an funding of rigor and continuity.

Which is why I have a good time celebs like Gabrielle Union who speak in regards to the variety of miscarriages, the variety of tries that it could take and the rejections of people who have tried to go the adoption route and the way sophisticated that course of could be, particularly should you want a Black little one and a baby that’s youthful so you possibly can elevate the infant. So I might say to anybody who’s giving these sorts of recommendations, my ask of them is to do the analysis of what you’re suggesting and perceive how this course of can do hurt to relationships. Whereas that is one thing that you just want, if you’re in a contented marriage, you don’t wish to primarily interrupt your life for one thing that will or might not go effectively and will doubtlessly bankrupt you as a pair. 

Yasmine Jameelah: As a pastor on this journey, what has that been like so that you can encourage your self and in addition perhaps even different girls that you just may come throughout or different households? How has that journey performed an element and this story? And what’s your biggest prayer to come back out of all of this?

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: Wow, what a query. I feel not having kids at this section of my life and being a pastor as I’ve been a pastor for ten years, it’s actually freed me as much as enable me to place extra into my ardour. It’s allowed me to be on the highway extra, to construct totally different sorts of connections, and to see that dimension of my skilled life flourish. And I don’t say this disparagingly for girls who’re doing each. I’m simply saying, in a wierd sense, it’s giving me the liberty of a male pastor. But when I ever do have kids, then I’ll determine that steadiness. 

Yasmine Jameelah: And your biggest prayer that you just hope to come back out of all of this?

Dr. Gabby Cudjoe-Wilkes: My biggest prayer is for Black girls like me who haven’t had kids, who’re nearer to 40 than 30, married or single, to acknowledge that we’re sufficient. We’re not egocentric; we’re loving, and we should be blissful on our journey. And if we turn into mothers later, nice. But when we by no means do, we’re nonetheless sufficient.